Comments and ideas for the measurement of Radon and radiation
Two SBM-20 in parallel and a GeigerAdapter form a simple probe, very sensitive and inexpensive.
This image shows a measure of environmental fund with Theremino_geiger
More information
– Software download: www.theremino.com/downloads/radioactivity
– Electrical schematics and Assembly plans: www.theremino.com/technical/schematics
– Hardware, DIY and kits: www.theremino.com/contacts/producers
– Images and videos: www.theremino.com/video-and-images
– Article about Open Source Electronics: it.emcelettronica.com/geiger-from-lab-sensitive-and-least-expensive
In the documentation folder (accessible from the Help menu) you will find all the information you need to use the program and probes.
The HAL program, required to connect to the Master, you download from here: www.theremino.com/downloads/foundations
Measure with Geiger
This image shows a measure of environmental fund 15 minutes, followed by the provision of a sample of dietary salt. At the beginning of each measure was pressed “Start”
Precision measurements you make with long integration time. While precision measurements you do not have to change the conditions of measurement. Move the samples during the measurement would be like taking a fever without taking the thermometer in the same spot for the three minutes required.
All ’ start of the measurement You should press the button “Start new measure” that is how “Reset the thermometer” Before measuring a fever. Without this initial zero setting it is likely that the fever has not indicated its, but someone else.
—————
To make precise measurements You must respect the agreements with the program, the instructions are explained, in detail, the procedures to be followed.
To make quick measurements, just set the “usual” 2 or 3 minutes of integration, using all portable geiger..
—————–
Some users would like to avoid having to follow the measurement protocol. In essence they would like a button “Start” you press alone, any significant variation of the radioactivity.
Early versions of Geiger had this option, but we found that this made the measurements unreliable and bore, in some cases, completely wrong measures, without being able to inform the user ’ and without any possibility of control by software. These errors were not due to an inaccurate implementation of ’ algorithm, but are inherent in the measurement method and any appliance that is automatically reset can avoid them.
As far as l ’ algorithm is sophisticated and set the trigger thresholds, There are always a few sequences of changes that lead to a zero delayed, resulting in pollution of the first part of the buffer of integration, or to a non-zero or, even worse, to reset drivers, they do lose hours of data.
To miss any appliance that resets by itself, proceed as per the following example:
1) Let it settle to the bottom
2) Bring a sample very radioactive 20 cm so that it resets and empty the buffer
3) Continue moving the sample up to contact, but very slowly, so as not to over take the reset threshold.
The first part of the buffer will be filled with samples too low, the threshold it clicks more and the measure will continue to be systematically flawed, How long you have the patience to wait.
This example sequence is extreme, but there are many real opportunities to attract more or less large errors, If you allow ’ user to move samples at any time, or add and remove fragments in a sample already to an extent.
The devices designed for measuring “on the field”, where it is important to react quickly, are not suited to precision measurements and can, in many situations, provide incorrect measurements.
Measure with the ion Chamber
Ion Chamber documentation files do not show enough that, in some cases, the pulse rate can be very low.
In environments with little radon (d ’ summer with wind and opened Windows) Radon concentrations may fall under the 0.1 PCI/l (4 Bq/m3). In these cases, you get even less than one pulse every 5 minutes. It can also happen to not measure no pulse for ten or fifteen minutes. The randomness then back to place the media, concentrating many impulses in 10 minutes after. The next image shows this behavior.
In this picture have gone well 9 minutes, before receiving the first impulse. In the central zone is also a period of 15 consecutive minutes without pulses.
That is why we designed a very large room (from 1 liter). With many commercial appliances impulses would also 100 times less frequent. For example a “Safety Syren Pro3” (a few cubic centimetres), would produce on average, Pulse every 7 hours and could spend long periods, even more than a day, no pulse.
Test of Thoron
If you live in an environment with little radon, the low frequency of impulses might suggest a malfunction of the room. Fortunately there is a Thoron, a similar Radon gas, but much more convenient for testing. More information about the test of Thoron, on pages 21 and 22 of the document “Radon_IonChamberElectronics”, download from here: /hardware/inputs/radioactivity-sensors
In the first part of this picture you see the Environment Fund. In the second part the mantle containing Thorium was positioned in the saucer, and been pressed Start. In the third part, the Start button was pressed again and in a few minutes the measurement has stabilised at about 5 PCI/l. In just over half an hour ’ l ’ error fell to 10%.
The gas mantles containing thorium are not all the same and the room may not fill completely due to leakage between the saucer and the room. Then the measured value may be different, Come on 5 PCI/l of this picture.
If you measure from 2 PCI/l to 10 PCI/l the test passed, Otherwise please email us.
In this picture the mantle with thorium and saucer were removed. L ’ indoor air was grossly cleaned up, waving a cardboard for a few seconds. Then the Chamber was lying horizontally, so leave the holes open to both terminals and pressed the Start button. In just over half an ’ now the room is completely cleaned up and returned to 0.1 PCI/l.
The ion Chamber should always be handled with delicacy. The bursts of pulses that are produced when the room is shaken, mild vibrations are produced by central wire and do not indicate a malfunction. Even dust bunnies can cause bursts of pulses, You may need to add dust filters. Read pages 25 and 26 of the document “Radon_IonChamberElectronics”, download from here: /hardware/inputs/radioactivity-sensors
Hi Livio,
During a big storm here in East Australia this January the alarm of my Gamma Scout (set at .6 uSv/h and about 5 times average) went off and the GS then showed rather elevated background radiation levels of up to 1.2 uSv/h as long the storm was ongoing. Other people in the area were also measuring high background radiation and rain sample values during this storm but nothing coming close to my readings.
After the event levels stayed high and were soon questioned by my associates and myself. The geiger counter was reset and electronics visually inspected with no obvious sign of any damage or fault.
What I have noticed is that this GS shows more pulses – up to 11 times more pulses – on the display than audible clicks.
I then put together the geiger adapter with 2 x SBM 20 as a reference and get readings of .04-.05 uSV/h background. The expected level from times when the GS seemed to work properly and from what has been measured in the area by associates would be around .08 to .12 uSv/h. Software Settings have been checked and voltages on the geiger adaptor board tested and all appear ok.
So what I am saying is that the Gamma Scout readings appear much too high and the geiger adaptor readings too low – presently .29 uSV/h for the Gamma Scout and .049 uSV/h for the geiger adaptor.
Would you be so kind to comment?
Thank you and
Kind regards
etc
Short response
——————————————————————————————
Both the readings are not correct
The 290 nS/h is very high. The Gamma Scout needs to be calibrated, but it is better to consider all the portable Geiger Counters as “inaccurate in the low radiation area” or you will calibrate them too much frequently (only the producer can calibrate them, and it is very expensive) Portable geiger counters are OK for the use “on the field” where is important a fast response to large radiation variations.
The 50 nS/h is very low – please calibrate down a little the “Tube Bkg” parameter, until you get a background reading of about 150 NS/h (as approximatively rated for the Australia in the file AmbientalRadiation_ENG_pdf that you can find in the docs folder or get from the menu Help) Consider also that the ambient background can be very different if measured inside or outside.
Long response
——————————————————————————————
It is quite normal for the all the portable geigers be quite inaccurate, with very low levels of radioactivity (say less than 1 us/h) as shown in the picture at the beginning of this page. They are not designed for laboratory precision measurements.
Geiger tubes themselves are very inaccurate in the lower area, this is due to the following factors:
1) inaccurate calibration of the “Tube Background” parameter
2) changes in the Geiger tube, background
3) working voltage too high (working in the high zone of the plateau)
4) changes in the working voltage (this is a well known GammaScout problem)
If you use our GeigerAdapter module and our application Theremino_Geiger these inaccuracy factors are reduced, the geiger tube is powered in the lower side of the plateau (to get the maximum TubeBkg stability) and it is possible to linearize exactly the tube response from zero to about 1 mS/h
With a proper calibration, the precision and the stability in the lower area can be better than +/- 10 NS/h
Calibration of the high radiation area
—————————————————————————————-
The values for CPS/mR/h and DeadTime are standard for all the tubes of the same model and can be taken from the tube data-sheet
These values do not changes from one tube to another, are stable with the temperature, tube age, mechanical stresses and relatively stable if the working voltage changes.
Calibration of the low radiation area
—————————————————————————————-
To get the maximum precision in the lower radiaton area, the “Tube Bkg” parameter must be calibrated for each individual geiger tube (or geiger tube array)
This can be done with two methods
1) If the background ambient radiation is approximatively known.
– Set a long integration time (9999 seconds)
– Press “Start new measure”
– Wait a long time until the plot line stabilizes (30 minutes or more)
– Calibrate the “Tube bkg” value to get the correct background value
2) Buy about 30 or 50 Kg of lead foils (normally they are 2mm thick)
– Wrap a cylinder with the sides of thickness 30 mm
– Put the geiger tubes in the cylinder
– Close the two open sides with two 30mm terminal plates
– Set a long integration time (9999 seconds)
– Press “Start new measure”
– Wait a very long time until the plot line stabilizes (60 minutes or more)
– Calibrate the “Tube bkg” to get a “ZERO” value of 10 NS/h (0.01 us/h)
The second method is scientifically correct and not depends from other devices with insicure “certifications”
Owning a lot of lead is useful also to:
– Periodically repeat the calibration
– Calibrate equipment of friends
– Shielding the environment for difficult measures
– Improve the graphics of the gamma spectrometry
bye
Livio
Thank you Livio for your detailed explanations and instructions. I now have changed the background cps to zero and which now shows a reading of about .11 uSV/h for background and which might be closer to a correct reading.
For now it would be good to calibrate the Geiger without a lead measuring chamber.
Is it possible to use a quantity of Potassium Chloride KCl to calibrate the Geiger – perhaps measuring only one tube and by direct placement on the tube and with long integration time?
Kind regards
etc
To calibrate with isotopes (or KCL) is not useful to calibrate the very low area (near to the ambient background)
Only with the lead method proposed you can calibrate “exactly” the tube Bkg parameter.
But a approximate calibration can be done knowing normal behaviour of the tubes.
It is impossible for a tube to produce a “zero” bkg so it is better to raise the bkg parameter a little…
This means also that the background radiation in your lab is lower than you think.
My experience says to regulate your tube bkg to get about 0.06 to 0.09 us/h
I am sure that the true value of your ambiental background is in this range.
—————-
Maybe it is not evident…
– the bkg parameters affects the linearity only in the low area (< 1 uS/h) - the sensitivity parameter affects the "slope" and changes mainly the high area (> 1 us/h)
bye
Livio
Hi Livio,
thank you for your practical advice. I have now calibrated the two SBM 20 in lead shielding as suggested by you for the scientific method. The background cps was adjusted to .32 for two tubes and .010 uSv/h at 8 % error range.
Readings for local background are now 0.055 uSv/h comparing to an average reading of about 0.12 on the (now repaired by hot air re-soldering parts of the circuit board) Gamma Scout.
Is it possible to use a correction factor gained from longer term integration – say 24h – of both counters to correct the readings of the Gamma Scout when using as a survey meter?
Kind regards
etc
Ok, to 0.32 tube-background for two SBM-20 is a very plausible value. And a 0.055 uS/h ambiental background is low but quite normal in many earth places. – In my lab it is 0.090 uS/h and outside about 0.070 us/h
You can correct this value from 0.40 to 0.32 in the file “Sensor_Data.txt” opening it from the menu “Help” / “Open program folder” / “Extra”
I think that it is not possible to calibrate better the Gamma Scout, you can try to send it to the producer, because only the producer can modify the firmware, or you can correct the readings with a manual look-up table. But, maybe, this will not solve the problem for long time because the very low radiation area is instable due to false-countings generated from the power supply and the high radiation area is not linear because the power supply stops to work and restarts periodically when the tube uses too much current.
Many people has tried to correct the power supply problems as you can read in the following snippets from: http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/
—————————————————————–
…When I took a closer look at the Gamma-Scout LND712 signals, I noticed that false tick signals still were present…
… The source of the signals is the high voltage switching circuit at the left side of the tube with consists of the ferrite coil …
… The printed circuit signal wires come quite close to the tube, and the coil induces quite a high EMF peak in the near vicinity of the LND712. ..
… Unfortunately the designers choose to lay the tube on a “high” potential and did not ground the outer metal shell. …
… On the first try I added a 40pf capacitor parallel to the signal at the base of the BC850C …
… I decided to try it the other way round and decided to shield the LND712 tube by wrapping it with very thin wire, connecting both ends to GROUND …
… The large corpus of the LND712 is like a large coupling capacitor to the switching peak generated by the HV charge pump. Thus the tube may pick up a short pulse signal when the HV is activated, enough to trigger a false count. The event occurs about once or twice a minute at low radiation levels and increases the cpm rate slightly…
————————————————————–
And about the problems in the High radiation area
———————————————————————–
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/113
———————————————————————–
4/13/2009 – Dr. Mirow (GammaScout)
“We have detected that the data display gets irregular above 30 µSv/h. As you have suspected already, it is not a problem of the physics used, but of the circuitry (more exactly, of the program running the high voltage supply). Though our product had not been designed for use in higher loads, we are working on the redesign to extend the upper limits of reliable measuring to some hundred µSv/h. Our scientific advisor says that there is no saturation of the sensor in the common field of use of the Gamma-Scout (below 10 µSv/h)”
———————————————————————–
Some solutions proposed for the Power Supply noise
———————————————————————–
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/114
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/115
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/116
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/117
Some people sends Gamma Scout pulses to a PC program
(but this can not correct the spurios pulses problem)
———————————————————————–
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/122
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/123
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/124
About the possibility to calibrate the GammaScout
———————————————————————–
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/125
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gamma-Scout/message/126
I am not suggesting to you to do GammaScout modifications but to consider the GammaScout a valid instrument “on the field” and not a laboratory instrument.
bye
Livio
Oggi ho fatto dei test con Theremino PMT adapter e un Tubo GM , in effetti il mio LND712 funziona benissimo collegato direttamente al PMT adapter , This system is very useful for finding the right voltage to probes , Since PMT adapter has adjustable tension is a breeze.
Of course , We also need an intermediate program that read the impulses (audio) and posts to Geiger , This program is called Theremino Audio Input and can be downloaded at the link multimedia.
Set the activation threshold and downtime , We provide a free slot (counter out) I am zero for example, and launch the Geiger, you select the probe and voila you're done.
Today I did some testing with Theremino PMT adapter and a GM tube, in fact my LND712 works fine connected directly to the PMT adapter, This system is very useful for finding the correct voltage probes, since the PMT adapter has adjustable voltage is a breeze.
Of course, you also need an intermediate program that reads the pulses (audio) and send it to Theremino Geiger, this program is called Theremino Audio Input and can be downloaded in the multimedia section.
Set the threshold and dead time, we put a free slot (counter out) I use zero for example, and run the Theremino Geiger, select the probe and voila you’re done.
Here is two live local background radiation monitoring stations that have been set up in Australia, using the Theremino Geiger Kits. Thought you might be interested. The monitoring page is still a work in progress.
http://sccc.org.au/monitoring/sunshinecoast-monitoring-station.html
Here are some photos of the Theremino Geiger Kit and the Russian SBT-10A tube mounted in a case we designed for them. The Russian SBT-10 tubes work well with the kit because of their high CPM.
Wiring
http://sccc.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Theremino-Geiger-kit-details-SBT-10.jpg
Assembly
http://sccc.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Theremin-in-case.jpg
I removed the Aluminium beta shield and placed a metal mesh over the SBT-10 mica window, to maximise sensitivity. This equipment is being used to test lots of environmental items. I wanted to get it up as close and personal as possible to samples, so a very thin replaceable cling wrap plastic is used to prevent contamination. If alpha testing is conducted the cling wrap plastic is removed, and a spacer put in place. For beta testing a thin Aluminium plate is used.
Completed unit
http://sccc.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Theremino-Geiger-in-case-SBT-10-with-mesh-and-cling-wrap.jpg
Hello Livio, io ed il mio amico Claudio Fiaschi, con cui dovresti aver già dialogato, abbiamo costruito due Theremino Geiger gemelli, con due sbm-20 ciascuno come sonda.
Innanzi tutto grazie per lo stupendo progetto, works to perfection! We have various samples for testing, Juicetraveller toriati, pumice and various salts, Thorium nitrate and all give due.
Now we would tip vagueness to place the probes, with its master, outside of housing, by connecting to PCs via wi-fi, Since I do the pc-surgeon and have wi-fi coupon in amount.
You definitely thought about such a possibility for wireless, have you already studied a solution?
I think that would be fine too let out the master signal with the ethernet Protocol and send it to a power line (I've got two) or make a wireless usb-usb bridge, do you have any idea about it?
Suggest if you can, We build and test, might be interesting also to connect the usb cable to your laptop without using geiger, putting the probe off and collegandocisi directly from wi-fi handset.
Thanks for the help that you can/want to give us.
Waldo and Claudio
You could spend over UDP if the other side can send UDP messages with the OSC Protocol. That way you could put the probe in Japan and read it through the Internet from home and also make her read at the same time as a friend in Spain. Same thing to switch to Wireless local area network.
There are also other types of communication, all require you to program the remote party somehow, to use Linux or Android and they all require knowing how to program the remote software on those operating systems (I don't know them) or use MaxMSP or similar.
An interesting alternative would be the Theremino_HttpServer that we are doing these days and that will provide the slots on a HTTP page (I don't know when we can finish it, If you want it faster just ask and we will send you the source code to be completed)
A solution that might be interesting would be to design a device via Wifi or Zigbee, We have started down the road but it is work very long and ZigBee I really mean when I finish, If someone will design of ZigBee modules or WiFi, We may help you integrate them in HAL.
We're heating up a lot for these things because so much then you should bring power to sensors and also lead the signal makes little difference. Control applications deserve a hard link that makes the system bus power and reliable.
Great idea of the Theremino http server, the best would be if, feeding it with a battery 4,5 V, the probe with the master could exit directly over wi-fi, connecting to your home router, It remains to be seen the autonomy that surely would be determined by wireless interface, considering the negligible absorption of the probe. Maybe those in Japan or in Chernobyl would put fixed but a wi-fi to take her to the terrace of the House might be dearie, even the idea of power lan is not to be discarded. There are around RFM70-S mini Bluetooth interfaces distributed by RS at low price, Chinese, but I fear the flow rate is insufficient. Wait for the Theremino server, for now, thanks for your assistance, to reread them soon.
Unfortunately all wireless solutions consume much, your best bet would be the ZigBee which (given its short Protocol and since it's made for such uses) It could even fall below the milli amps. To get the-powered Wifi won't happen and the Blue Tooth is even worse. However, the ZigBee consumes a lot compared to the brightness GeigerAlim. The beauty of having a geiger on the balcony, without wires, you lose if you have to go to change the batteries every week. Much better lose some’ time to bring out a microphone cable (stocking + Red wire and black wire) and use it as a signal and power supply. The same cable might in future carry the serial line thereminica who could read and write sensors and actuators at will and eliminate the problem of batteries.
I can see no other good solutions, so for now we put the HttpServer Theremino that, at the very least, It is usable with any smartphone or tablet, delegating to him the problem bear charges the batteries.
Alessio recently did a mini survoltore making 5 Volts for the Geiger Adapter from a single aaa battery. The all-consuming a few tens of AU and then the battery will last many years on all the time. The release of GeigerAdapter then connects to the jack of the smartphone which measures radiation with its App (even with phone off). In the future the smartphone may send the measure in WiFi, the page Theremino Http.
For now there are some pictures and a video in this file:
https://www.theremino.com/files/Rad_Checker_V1.0.zip
For more news on the RadChecher ask to Alexei: alessio.giusti@meteolink.it
Alessio has used a box big enough, you could also do much smaller.
Hi guys is a little bit that we do not feel , I'm continuing the testing and we are still three stations.
I read that there's news on Theremino_HttpServer would be good …..
Hello Livio and un salutone to all the staf
Luciano
Hi Livio, can your excellent Geiger module provide an open collector output for a stand alone and battery powered (5V) counter
or will I have to add another module or something as there is no computer in this application to control HAl? I would appreciate your comments. Thank you
etc
You can consider the GeigerAdapter output as an open collector, it will works with every normal circuit that requires open collector or normal CMOS signals.
The output impedency is high (33k ohm because R10) so in any case nothing can be damaged.
If you supply the Adapter with 5 volt the output signal is normally zero volt and pulses are 5 Volt for about 100 or 150 uS. If not working OK, please say to me what kind of circuit you will use to read the pulses.
There is also an adapter that works with a single 1.5 Volt AAA battery for many years. It lights a led every pulse for about five years always on. You can see some info of this adapter here: https://www.theremino.com/files/Rad_Checker_V1.0.zip
You can call info about RadChecker to Alessio: alessio.giusti@meteolink.it
bye
Livio
Appreciation for this great writeup. It actually was a new leisure consideration this. Glimpse superior to significantly extra acceptable of your stuff! Moreover, exactly how should we communicate?
Thanks for the appreciations, you can copy, link and communicate any part of the resarches, idea software and schematics of this site. All our work is OpenSource, OpenHardware and Free.
I’m using SBM-20-1 with it and i set SBM-20 in Thermino Geiger Soft.
Why i have enviromental readings about 39-50 nSv/h , and on my Dp-2 mobile Geiger i have 100-120?
The DP-2 is also called: “Dosimeter DP-2” and also the “D” of the name “DP2” means “Dosimeter”
There is a slight difference from Geiger meters and dosimeters, while the Geiger meters are intended to measure the radiation, the dosimeters are intended to protect you from high radiation levels.
So, normally, the dosimeters are trimmed to measure slightly high to be absolutely sure that they do not underestimate the radiation.
Furthermore dosimeters are simple devices designed to measure high radiation levels, for which often do not contain the subtraction of the background pulses of the Geiger tube.
For this reason, also if they are perfectly calibrated at medium or high levels, when measuring very low levels (as the environment), their reading becomes too high.
In the following video you will see a user that experiences this :
The Dp2 measures a instantaneous level of 0.15 us/h
While two other instruments (not dosimeters) are measuring 0.11 us/h
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4sbeeHlE
My experience and the readings I have done about DP2 suggest that your DP2 overestimates your environmental radiation level of about 1.4 times (attention: this rapport is valid only for low levels near to 0.1 us/h)
So I think that your true environmental radiation level is not 100 to 120 nS/h but about 70 to 85 NS/h
This is the better estimation we can do about your true environmental level.
—————————————————————————————————-
Now you must also reduce a little the Theremino Geiger parameter; “Background CPS” from “0.20” (that is normal for a medium SBM20) to “0.10” (that is valid for some SBM20 of recent production with a low background)
Or, better, you can change this parameter (also while measuring) to trim the measured value to a value 1.4 times less than the DP-2 (about 70 to 100 NS/h) (you can also use keyboard keys UP and DOWN to trim while reading the value)
This is the better you can do without to compare with more precise instrumentation.
—————————————————————————————————–
Please remember also that when measuring radiations a precision of about +/- 50% is a very good result.
There are many factors (different Geiger tubes, different active area, energy of the isotopes and different response curve to different energies and also different radiations as alpha beta and gamma, and also soft and hard gamma)
All those factors can produce VERY different response from a model to another model of Geiger tubes.
It is possible that two tubes are measuring the same when measuring Cesium for example 100nS and 100nS but they are in contrast when measuring Americium, I have experienced personally
incredible differences like 30 NS (LND7312) and 400 NS (LND712)
(they are professional tubes and we have paid them 150 $ and 300 $)
Sorry for my bad English
Bye
Livio
Dear Marek
If in the future you will gain the access to a professional instrument to make a precise comparative trimming, please follow this:
Trim the low side of the measuring range (about 100 NS/h) using the parameter “Tube Background”
Trim the high side of the measuring range (about 10 uS/h and up) using the parameter “Tube Sensitivity”
Use very long integration times and, maybe, repeat the two trimmings two or three times.
——————–
After this you can also write the trimming of your tube in the file “Sensor_Data.txt”
(maybe with a different name – for example MySBM20)
You can access to it with: Help / Open program folder / Extra
Then you can open and write in this file with Notepad or Wordpad
——————-
This and other useful things are explained in the Theremino Geiger documentation.
bye
Livio
Utilizzando il programma Theremino 4.9 per geiger e si minimizza sul computer e poi si riapre si perde l’intera traccia di registrazione, ne appare solo una piccola parte sul lato destro…perchè?
Thank you
Perché il Theremino Geiger è stato fatto per essere usato in laboratorio e dare più una misura che fosse la più precisa e stabile nel tempo più breve possibile, compatibly with the randomness of the data and the number of pulses is collected. It was then that after a maximum of half an hour the measurement was made…
Only after, at the urging of users, and a little’ at a time, We've added the ability to do long charts, then long weeks and months, then the log files on disk, then i log onto websites, logs with images… etcetera.
But the deep base of the program keeps sample 10 times per second. And if this was okay to do fast and precise laboratory measurements, It's no good for very long LOG because soon fills the memory of PC.
For this reason, the recovery of memory graph was limited to a short time (I think about half an hour)
Are known problems and annoy everyone from time. And given that the code is Open Source, anyone could put it right with little work, for example it could smoothly extend the current half-hour 3 hours. But I do not believe that we can go to 12 hours or more because it definitely would jump out serious problems, both memory and exaggerated slowness of the recovery of the chart after it is reduced or disappears and then reappears.
I'm also sure that if we stretched out in 3 hours, or 12 hours, He would jump right out someone who would want to 24 hours or 15 days.
Then?
So who wants to do environmental monitoring should devote a PC that I use and always keep the window open.
Or you should review the entire program and let it work in two different ways
1) The first way would be the same as now, fast and accurate sampling
2) The second way would only serve to make the environmental monitoring and should save a given per minute instead of 10 data per second.
Saving a given per minute you could store about a month with the same memory (and recovery time) you use now to store half an hour.
Hopefully someone do it, Unfortunately we have seen in recent years that either we do it or nobody does, so we hope very much…
Or sooner or later resume in hand but now we are busy with the ion Chamber for radon, I'm sorry. Livio
I wanted to ask whether it is normal for the geiger adapter when it is not raining I indicates approximately 5, 6
And when it rains indicates 10, 3 as the level of radioactivity the probe using sbm home abroad and absent 2hole. Thank you
The doubling in the rain is normal, Look here:
https://www.theremino.com/blog/geigers-and-ionchambers/environmental-monitoring
But what are the numbers 5.3 and 10.6, probably are the micro Roentgen, then it is normal, Perhaps a little lower as the 5.3, It is usually from 7 to 10 and in some volcanic areas also 20.
We usually for very low radioactivity we use nano Sievert but does the same, just tell me if I get it right.
sorry I didn't put in the above message the Livio units, are 5, 10, 3uR/6uR/h to h and I'm using 2 sbm tubes 20, first I used a LND712 always in the same position and I pointed to 11uR/h without rain while the two sbm20 without rain indicate 5, 6uR/h . I combined pipe because LND 712 failed, why such a difference? LND was in the same container as a black plastic container SBM20 with holes of diameter 3 mm not not exposed on mica tube LND.
Hello and thanks in advance.
If they score poorly is because they are good pipes and have a BKG very low. Turn it down a little’ the BKG that there is within the parameters of the pipe up to be approximately 10 ru/h without rain (or what should be in your region with stated in the documentation of the app. Thereminogeiger)
This setting affects only to low levels of radiation, and since the bkg is not equal for all pipes, even the same model, manufacturers always point in the data-sheet a BKG maximum (1 CPS for SBM20) much greater than that of pipes which on average produce which is usually 0.2 CPS
Then occasionally makes best tubes, with BKG lowest price, even 0.1 or 0.05 CPS)
In these cases you have to adjust it you.
The same thing does not happen to the sensitivity that does not change from one tube to the other.
Adjustment of the BKG to get about what to expect in the Italian region where you live (from 7.0 to 15.0 ru/h in Italy) is already a good setting. To do better take much lead.
This is well explained in the help center of the app. Thereminogeiger on page 25
The BKG would in program in options on vocals: bottom in CPS, fair? now is 0,40 then down with a little. I just try it calms, We hope!
It is he, lower it until the bottom mark as environment in file AmbientalRadiation_ITA for your region (you have to use the file in Italian – If you charge the program menu, you must first select the Italian language)
You will need to lower it by 0.40 about 0.20
Then if you want you can also add a line to the Sensor_Data.txt file that is located in the “extra” with the correct information for your probe.
Thank you, I'll try to add the exact info of my tubes.
I have a file called trovatu “txt sensor_data.” in the folder/extra/and here I have to possibly understand row, and/or can I change the value in the line already made with two sbm20?
Hello Luke
You are right the right file.
You can have all sorts of ways:
– make a new line type “My double SBM20” with your parameters
– make multiple rows with the same name “2xSBM20” but different parameters
– change only the value in row 2xSBM20 that exists
Like you… just be easy to use and remember it.
Of course what you write in this file acts only if then choose from menu, otherwise it is the last thing you write manually in the three boxes of regulation.
I tried now,I did it both by adding a line or by editing an existing entry,but it doesn't work , I poirichiamato as you say by programa sensor type but the row or modified or a new one there is nor the line with the modified field has the bkg edited remained that at first and the sensor data file txt I saved with the changes . I closed the program and reopened but nothing to do whats wrong. sorry to bother you when ever you have time explain, of course I kept new line and changed the same tablature if you could call it Luke
PS:version geiger 4.4
Should also work with the 4.4 but (for other reasons) It's much better if you download the latest version 4.9 from here: https://www.theremino.com/downloads/radioactivity
I tried this and it worked right away
Possible errors:
– you wrote by hand the line instead of copy it from the old one and you forgot a comma
– you wrote one of the separating decimal numbers with commas instead of the point
– you didn't do “Save” from notepad
– you've changed the file “Sensor_Data_Original.txt” Instead of “Sensor_Data.txt”
– you've changed the right file but in another folder where you have another copy of ThereminoGeiger
– you've changed the right file but inside the zip
– are you sure you have unzipped the zip in a folder before using it?
Now do it again writing line by line every operation:
– In the menu “Help” Awards “Open the program folder”
– Double click on “Extra”
– Double click on “Sensor_Data.txt”
– Selections in blue the entire row “2xSBM20, 58, 0.4, 190, Geiger”
– Go to the top menu of notepad and then Change / Copy (or press CTRL-C)
– Place the cursor exactly at the end of the line and press ENTER to make a blank line
– Go to the top menu of notepad and then Change / Paste (or press Control-V)
– Now you see two lines equal one after the other and everything well aligned
– Close Notepad by the Red Cross. It asks you to save and press “SI”
– Go to the menu “Sensor type” Opens the list with two equal rows.
I did while writing the lines and it worked again.
If you can't give me a call and we will see to understand why.
Livio 0125 57290 from 09 at 19 including holidays.
OK Livio works , before I worked because I warmed up the Extras folder and the file from Windows Explorer window, not from geiger's Help menu theremino, I'll try to install the latest version but I don't know if saving the configuration of 4.4 and then loading it on the new version 4.9, I have everything now ver 4.4, the ftp web configuration I find myself already configured I don't knowif I managed to explain.
You've explained very well, First of all,, If you're not wrong no, commas and periods in the right place and the right file, changes in work, even if you don't make passing from the menu but in any other way. Try it and see that it is so. With the menu I only suggested the shortest route.
Restore your settings on the new version is easy, just locate the folder “Extra” the old version and copy it to the folder “Extra” the new version, overlaying all files. Then do the same with the file “Theremino_Geiger_INI.txt” and you're done.
Or you can open both the old and new application and, looking at the values on the screen, copy by hand the settings.
OK so clear, Thank you very much. Regards Luca
I forgot to write that even save a configuration and load it with another software can fit. (However, this method does not copy any modified files in the Extra folder but only the main file "Geiger_INI")
Salve ,I would like to remind all thereminiani and not that well store the readings in a files on your pc, There is a possibility to send them even in a national database so that they are “shared”.
Please help this initiative and facilitate customers I put a link on the name.
Tap on “luciano” to go directly to the site that collects data.
Do yourself then explain to him how to send the data.
Thanks Livio
Hello Livio
tomorrow I'll know for the dust sensor if and’ easy to disassemble.
Now I ask for help for the Geiger:
During a thunderstorm I collected rainwater and checking for radioactivity.
Now I would like to place it fixed externally, do you wonder how to protect it: with glass? plexiglass? or else?
For connection and’ better via usb or with shielded cable between Master and Geiger?
The distance and’ about 20 meters
With a protection how are reliefs
Thanks for your help
Greetings
Twenty meters are many for USB, I'd use a shielded cable with two wires inside. (would probably work also the USB but it is better not to risk it and then the cable would be stiffer and more expensive)
Thin plastic protection (holding the tube very close to plastic and outside) does almost no gamma and beta ray attenuation. You should use a chilled container overturned and perhaps inclined to avoid accumulating water over. Maybe add in sachets of desiccant and seal it with silicone or similar.
Attention it is protected against lightning, that is, that there are metallic objects on the ground as high or better yet a tip or a well grounded lightning rod.
Good morning
looking for someone who can give news or tell me where to trace the features of two pipes in tribute. The initials on the tubes are CN26 and CN36 ( the dash and’ upside down )
The only news of the seller are that the type of pipes are respectively Si2b and Si3bg.
The hose CN26 / Si2b should be operated to 1600V.
I thank those who can help me
luciano
By translating the Cyrillic characters SI2B and SI3B become CN36 CN26 tubes and.
The two tubes should be similar to each other.
Are outdated pipes do not understand if they use an organic gas quenching (We would say to you by the short life – million strokes against the normal ten billion pulses of halogen tubes)
The organic quenching after many years they run out and probably these pipes discharge into continuation or have many spurious pulses of background. Besides the need to make such high voltages indicates that they are antique design. Probably are not very sensitive and it is interesting to note that do not specify the sensitivity. If someone test them I'd be curious to know how.
To feed them, you could use a PmtAdapter pulled in 1700 Volts by changing the resistor above the zener. Attention to two filter capacitors that are supposed to be from 2000 Volts, Since you have to feed a Geiger tube does not serve a very low noise and you could replace with vulgar 10nF or 4.7 nF with tension 2000 Volts.
These are pipes which suffer the current, the resistor in series must be high, better 10 Mega ohm and you have to use a positive wire very short (two or three cm Max.) to keep to a minimum its ability. Too much capacity would cause a strong instantaneous current pulsing and further shorten tube life.
Geiger-Muller tube Si3b
It has mica window to allow registration of beta-radiation.
Working power begins from 1650 Volts
Platform length: at least 150 Volts
Plateau slope: not more than 0.03%
Self noise: not more than 25 pulses/min
Density of mica window: 3 mg/cm2
Length of counter: no more than 90 mm
Diameter of counter: no more than 38 mm
Working life: 50 million pulses
Load Resistance to anode: 7…10 Mohm
Allowable input capacitance stray: not more than 10 pF
Working ambient temperatures: -25 … +40 OC
Allowable radiation: not more than 10000 pulses/min
Hello Livio
through the publication of my station.
About the pipe Si3b where do I find the PmtAdapter?
Another question how do you know I put the geiger outside, I can not make a graph of 24 hours because after a few hours, Hal disconnects.
I used a shielded cable for industrial Instrumentation, the length and’ just under 30 m.
Before placing it externally I had never done such long pads
Thank you and greetings
luciano
This of Hal that disconnects you to understand… having the wire usually comes into the lab can't try connecting it to another computer or a notebook to borrow for a day or two?
I would understand if is computer-dependent and rule out anything in the cables or disturbances coming from the network or other such things. If the other computer does not (as I think) We will focus on the computer and we will see to change anything until he does more.
Write me what is the computer, is a notebook?
Maybe sometimes goes into energy saving?
Try looking in System / Hardware / Device Manager and passes all the USB controllers and the usb HUB and turn all “Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power”
Also check all welds of the Master
Try also to add a resistor from 33 K ohms in series with the signal pins from geiger just before the master PIN (close to the master) that way if they come down the wire signal disorders will no longer disturb the PIC and make it disconnect from USB.
If you find the defect and how system, Please write it down for me, so if you happen to others as I know how to do.
From the evening of 04/11/2013 He didn't’ more disjointed and is continuing, in the old days in my area there were constantly small thunderstorms, may be these?
How do you know my station and’ placed outside.
The signal wire 33Kohm can put for security or look when the problem '.
The pc and’ a little Chef with a secondary monitor from 17″ always on because he also attached a seismic station with three sensors, It has never given me problems.
Hello luciano
I would add however resistance from 33k the, does no harm and may help in case of lightning that induce a strong current on the wire that goes out. No need to protect the pic that would not break, however, but only to avoid errors on USB communication. When you put it on your signal wire attached to the master you could lift it up to 100 k by further increasing the ability to withstand many thousands of volts (instants)
Hi guys,There were also problems to my station and I did some testing.
Carrier am-ssb Icom apparatus test 40 w dipole antenna (on the roof)- theremino home hardware.
3.6 MHz slight disorder
7.1 MHz slight disorder
10.1 MHz slight disorder
14.1 MHz led on “Theremino Master” turns off, removing the carrier turns back on.
15 the led flashing slows MHz,removing the carrier you restore.
18.1 MHz slight disorder
21.1 MHz slight disorder
24.9 MHz slight disorder
27 MHz led on “Theremino Master” turns off ,the geiger begins to count upward indefinitely (CPM 3840000), you have to reset the application HAL.
145 MHz no problem
So if you have any radio frequency source in area, especially if you're in the city think it solved the problem by entering theremino in a metal container,and connecting hardware mass to the container.
As I have some free, I'll do more testing with theremino”shielded”.
NB Please note that cb and ham radio with only 40w antenna can be counted on your fingers . :-).
I add to be clearer, the problem is in the “Theremino Master” and not in the “Geiger Adapter”, surely due to its sensitivity.
My roof is positioned very close to geiger dipole and is not affected in the count(at least it seems).
Tested using the key combination: The geigeradapter – ThereminoMaster.
I corrected your messages with the right names “Geiger Adapter” and “Theremino Master” to reduce the confusion, check if it is OK.
For me the trouble comes from the wire connection between GeigerAdapter and ThereminoMaster that, being long many meters, It acts as the antenna. The fact that major disturbances occur at approximately 14 and 28 MHz (multiples of 11 meters) makes me think that this is the wire that acts as antenna.
Shield the Master with a metal compartment should not change anything. The solution, as already written in other messages, It should be a 100 k resistor in series with the signal wire and positioned close to the Master.
Possibly, If the disturbance arrives from earth connection (wire braid shielded) and not by the signal, you could put a resistor from 100 ohm in series to the ground connection (always very close to the master)
Protect resistors ThereminoMaster processor and USB connection from strong currents in RF signals from a shielded cable and also from lightning, I'd put them always with long cables.
Please let me know if I understand the situation and whether the 100 k resistor solves the problem, otherwise we feel for skype or phone and let's fix it.
Livio thanks I always write so fast….
tested with only the cable supplied and the disturbance is present .
OK I'll run the tests with the strength I will let you know.
I successfully built a radon chamber, now it works and it gets quite cold in my flat closing and opening the window. Now I try to evaluate the calibration factor……
Very well Bertrand , We appreciate your effort , Please send us your tests for sharing with the community, Happy Xmas to you from all Theremino Team.
For about a month I've been using the Geiger and are networked with Paul Frediani, so far so ok
Since yesterday afternoon, each time you open a window on the graph:
Error deleting file or folder
Unable to delete PLOT_LOG: File already in use by another user
Quit the program that is using the file, then try again
Ok
Clicking OK opens
Image save error
Ok
Clicking on OK now disappear this window
While this morning’ disable the program and had to start from scratch
Can you help me
Hello luciano
When I wrote the TherminoGeiger the intention was to do manual scans in the laboratory. All part of LOG has been forced by the users and has grown so wild. The deep base of the program is not based on a LOG file that can extend for days but is optimized for fast and accurate analysis lasting a few hours at most.
To be able to use it as a logger should be redone completely. Probably will Nobu because it is building the ions and early to read it will serve the ThereminoGeiger.
And knowing Nobu, just because you change it, He takes it to heart and improves. I'm good at the interfaces with electronics but Nobu is much better than me on the pure software and user interface, so it's best to wait until your changes.
For now you could disable the LOG file and use only the images.
Or you could try to shrink the log file, by storing it every month with a different name and making him start from scratch. (Let us know if this solves the problem)
Jim Hannon wrote:
Are their eagle files available for the Geiger Adapter, the surface mount version. I was unable to find them on the theremino site.
Thanks, Jim Hannon – http://www.ocrslc.net/
Dear Jim,
we discourage the construction of the SMD version to avoid unnecessary costs and secure disappointments.
The components are not in the normal Farnell catalogue. In addition some of the components are selected to reach inusual characteristics of temperature stability and low current consumption.
1) Zener diodes are ultra low leakage. (1 nano ampere at 25 deg-c and < 10 nano ampere in the whole military temp. range) 2) Zener diodes are individually selected to get the exact desired voltages (a 5% less than the rated voltages to minimize the Geiger Tubes BKG) (this way, the actual voltages are 295, 380 and 475 instead of 300, 400, 500) 3) Duplicator diodes are 800 Volt, ultra low capacity (some pF) and low leakage (< 10nA) 4) The schmitt-trigger IC must be a NXP model, selected for low current consumption when the voltage is between the two trip points. Without all this attentions, the GeigerAdapter would be not only unstable, but possibly, it would not work. As soon as the temperature rises, the leakage current may exceed the comparison current and the voltage can suddenly drops even 100 volts or more. Finally, about 5% of the produced adapters does not comply with the project characteristics. We realized a special test bed to test the Geiger Adapters. They are tested one by one and eventally discarded for a further manual fixing. -------------------------------- I'm sorry but we don't want to encourage these efforts, to avoid delusions in the DIY community, as there's a high risk of spending money and not be able to make it work. Please note that this is not to obtain more earnings as we don't produce or sell our projects. We posted the circuit diagram with the names of all components and published two alternative versions, easy to build with easily obtainable components. All the relative info are free and OpenSource. bye Livio
Hello Livio, ho visto Theremino SimpleLogger possiamo testarlo?
Mi servirebbero delle modifiche e ho bisogno di aiuto.
Vorrei far scrivere i dati di theremino geiger, non su files csv, ma su un database mysql.
E vorrei provarlo con linux e vedere se è stabile con emulatore MONO..
Hello
I'm sorry but i don't know them and I like little MySql file.
And also with respect to Linux I'm sorry to disappoint you… We fought for months with various versions of Linux the LIB-USB and also with Tigers and leopards of the Mac. Roberto now (our experienced “Aliens”) seems to have given up. I have so much to do and I find it more useful to commit my time on Windows systems that I find most “cooperative”.
I don't doubt that Linux is better than Windows, However I would appreciate someone to demonstrate with facts. Instead, what I saw, Summing up two years of experiments, is that only gave us problems and that no one has been able to solve them.
Meanwhile on Windows we are progressing as Beavers. We are keeping simultaneously over 40 applications, with an average of one new application every 15 days and with virtually zero problems. And it is not about simple applications, Some have already conquered the first place worldwide in their field, other, as the ThereminSynth and loggers for Geology, they will soon.
These days we are experiencing KST-plot which is a great OpenSource Viewer for LOG files. If you know how to configure it KST does amazing things. We're showing Geiger log files in real time, While they are written.
KST also supports huge files and displays them and filter them in every possible way. And’ also very easy zoom and browse the files in the past. I would say it is the perfect solution for all needs scientific logging.
Soon we will post a section just for KST, in conjunction with the Theremino SimpleLogger (that probably will grow and will become the real Theremino Logger)
Theremino SimpleLogger wants test it though writes data to csv files,then I'm going to pass them is mysql.
I don't understand the sledgehammer of vb programming etc. you understand that you are very busy, and with programs theremino do a great job.
Luciano
I don't know if you saw but the SimpleLogger is at the bottom of this page:
https://www.theremino.com/downloads/foundations
We added the compiled versions (exe) so you don't even have to open Theremino Script to compile them. The three versions precooked logging every second, ten times per second and one hundred times per second.
KST files allow you to view logs in various ways, While you are logging. They're just examples. With patience and enquiring on the WEB you can make KST every kind of view and filter.
Hello Livio,how we doing with theremino kit for radon?
Maluccio, nobody produces, you have to have it. If you want to make one you can ask the PCB to Alessio and perhaps could even montarteli or get the whole kit of components.
We show barkeeper with improvements to CapSensor for Theremin and we are back with the Theremino Data Logger. As time passes and worse is. Don't know mica someone who enjoy working for free, Maybe a great programmer and preferably with good knowledge in electronics and physics? It would help a lot…
I can't help otherwise I was already in the field for a long time.
do a test with the matrix Board. and with the jar of jam :-))
I made a room in ions with the kits provided by Alessio, I brought some changes on the purely mechanical construction. It seems to work to “large”
While rehearsing particularly under vacuum I had some surprises, someone is trying this room ?
Hello
I tried a long time during the design and I used a method very convenient. I placed the camera vertically, on a saucer plate round, thick plastic. You have to find a saucer with a diameter that, the barrel of the camera enters the saucer well, form against the walls and leaving in one or two centimeters of air. The saucer, as far as pemeabile to radon, It slows down a lot.
To take the test you progress so:
– Place it in the saucer a thorium mantle and seals with room above.
– You wait some minute and the number of counts must progressively increase
– The counts, If the saucer is thick and close properly, must climb a lot
– Gently raise the room, slips off the saucer and it does away with two sticks
– You blow a change into the Chamber, and counts must get off in seconds
Normal counts of the room in an environment with little radon, or outdoors, should be one every few minutes. With the saucer and the thorium mantle should go up to a hundred times, up to one per second and more. The head of these counts is the Thoron which is perfect for quick experiment. The Thoron has a Radon decay much faster but is similar in everything else.
During the experiment the room fills up gradually to Thoron from bottom to top (Thoron and Radon are heavier than air). If you put the saucer on top, instead of under, the experiment doesn't work anymore. This is because radon goes down and out for the hole to move due. Minimum enough slots to disperse immediately these gases that are extremely volatile. I tried using a thin plastic saucer and the number of coteggi rose much less, did not exceed one every ten seconds. Radon and Thoron gas are strange, Cross easily unsuspected materials. Not all experiments are responding as you think.
I also got the kit from Alessio ,but still I didn't have the room for business purposes…..
I hope to try it soon.
Luciano
Salve,I have a problem with the hall ,After a few days of operation stops count geiger impulses while the led continues to blink module.
By pressing the “You acknowledge” on program hall in this case keeps the count.
What is cyclic and it is no coincidence the catch makes always. after a two-day
What can be caused the misbehavior?
the computer is very new but has only 1 GB of memory. and 3 GB cpu
windows xp operating system
the hall is the 4.0
the teremino geiger is the 5.2
There are other programs that are running on the computer not even antivirus,the pc is dedicated only to geiger.
Thank you
Looks like the Master continues to work, but that stops the USB communication. To find out what it is, You must try to change various things, one at a time and maybe write more information, as do other tests. Unfortunately, Since this is wait some days for each test, the operation will be lead…
– The USB switch HUB? (try to change it or delete it)
– Try changing usb cable
– Try changing the USB port
– The wire that goes from the Master at GeigerAdapter is very long?
– It is no coincidence that the GeigerAdapter was grounded at the end of the cable
– There is an external power supply, the USB HUB or worse still attached to GeigerAdapter?
– There are other cables connected to other Master PIN?
– When it stops counting, the application HAL marks the first red line and says “disconnected”, in the right part (column “Notes”)?
– Try to go on USB devices with “Device Manager” and disable “Energy savings” / “Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power”
– And in “Power options” remove all timed disabling (Hard drive, screen saver and the like)
– Try it on another computer, to exclude both the Master (If he will be replaced without a problem but don't get your hopes, This has never happened to find a Master broken)
– If none of these steps solve the problem, then this could be an application (or the same operating system) that sometimes resets the system USB and does disconnect the Master. (uninstall all applications that do not need, especially Java, Flash and the like and all services and applications that every few days trying to update the software automatically, as Chrome Updater and the like)
– By the way your computer is connected to the Internet?
The questions on the connecting cable and the Earth are because the only case of USB communication detachment that we know is when you send to the pins of a Master extratensone (exceeding 3.3 Volt bearable from the inputs). This could happen with long cables, connected to power supplies or taking electromagnetic disturbance from lightning, or by a coupling with the electrical system of the dwelling, in case of switching on and off of large motors.
I can't think of anything else… send us more info about evidence, Hello, Livio.
replacing the usb already done.
the usb cable 1 m
There are no hub
from master to geiger there are 20 MT 4 cable×0,5mmq + – signal reception1 segnale2 no mass.
the geiger are two slot1 – slot6 in two different environments
It seems to me-HAL marks the first red line and says "disconnected" will do more attention to this
No there are no electromagnetic noise talking radios are very far from the city,in these days of Sun the problem occurred often.
now I try to disable "power” and I'll know.
But if you have tested the operation of entire days continuous?
Thank you
Of course we have tested the long operation, not just for days but for months. At least four or five geiger are working continuously since last year, send the logs via the internet and not disconnecting ever.
Once there was a problem with a ThereminoGeiger cha crashed after a few days and then it turned out that sent a very long log file every second up to clog the network. But that's not your case for sure.
Now that you told me that there are long cables as I understand what's going on. Especially since I seem to have understood that they are not shielded.
Twenty metres of cable harvesting inevitably (for electromagnetic induction) all kinds of electrical noise. If only because they are parallel to the wires of the electric system of House, Although far. If he did pass along the walls or even worse at the side of the electrical cables pairing is greater.
The electrical system every so often is crossed by power surges also very strong which can climb over for induction even meters of air and lead to a parallel cable a flicker of instantaneous voltage.
If the cable gets a boost, even very short, a few uS and even just a few tens of millivolts, may cause you to exceed 3.3 Volts. The microcontroller is not damaged but loses the USB communication, just as it happens to you.
This is well known and we have written repeatedly to get us attention.
for example here: https://www.theremino.com/technical/pin-types
and also here: https://www.theremino.com/technical/communications
When using long cables or, for whatever reason there is doubt they get problems with your Master, It's always good to add a 100 k resistor in series with the signal yellow wire. The resistor should be positioned close to the input pins of the Master.
In your case you will need to add two resistors, one for cable.
If that doesn't solve the problem then is USB that is reset by the operating system or any software. If you don't find a solution you will need to change your computer or reinstall the operating system, USB drivers or install Windows7 so as to change in one fell swoop all drivers.
you remember the resistor ,I'm on it….
Thank you
Try it for a week and then let us know if everything is OK. If he continues to do so you may never be able to understand why. It occurs to me that there was a case similar to yours last year, a computer that was leaking regularly USB communication, whenever the mouse is moved, maximizing or minimizing a window, absurd!
In that case, however,, that hasn't happened every three days but always. Just touched a window… ZAC. And strangely USB mice continued to work, even moving the Windows.
Poor Ennio tried everything and replaced all the drivers of motherboard but kept the same to do so. The solution was to change PC. Fortunately never happened to other.
Thanks to write here in the blog, So what we write is useful to all.
Hello,
I wanted to ask whether it is possible to connect the two geiger so that work in conjunction, that is when an event only if it happens simultaneously in two sensors.
Thank you
It can be done but it takes of commodity hardware, don't just connect a GeigerAdapter to a Pin and another in a second Pin. Since this is micro seconds, the accuracy of the USB connection wouldn't be enough.
In principle, the scheme is this:
————————————————————-
TuboGeiger –> GeigerAdapter —->|
TuboGeiger –> GeigerAdapter —->| Door AND (74HCxxx) | —> Led
Input may be used instead of the Led (PIN) System Theremino configured as a counter. (in that case, to lower 5 3.3 Volt Volt door exit AND in suitable Pin inputs you need to add a 33K resistor in series with the signal)
Here you can see how did Abam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=820ifYlyc0o
If you get stuck you can ask him the precise scheme: alessio.giusti@meteolink.it
We published the schema of detector of coincidences here:
https://www.theremino.com/hardware/inputs/radioactivity-sensors#coincidence
Please excuse my ignorance on the subject, the detector of coincidences exactly what is?
The three graphs that you will get what I suggest?
Hello everyone
Hi,
On the Checker PCB there is BUZZER_OUT on the signal line and BUZZER_REF on +5V. I first thought BUZZER_OUT would be Buzzer(+) and BUZZER_REF the buzzer’s other pin (-), but I got no tone. Now that I connected the buzzers (+) pin to BUZZER_REF, I get a nice decent clicking.
The Geiger adapter PCB is so tiny, interestingly it fits perfect in the small enclosure I have. I also think about placing it in an old mobile phone case which is again more “discreet” :-)
Have a nice day, all of you!
Andreas
Reply about the Checker buzzer – ENGLISH
There are two buzzer types:
1) Polarized buzzers, that generate a frequency (beeeeeep) when powered .
2) Simple unpolarized piezo-disks.
Probably now you are using the type (1). But maybe you will get a more powerful click (and no +/- polarization problems) with the type (2)
Or even better:
Use a type (1) buzzer, but remove all the circuit components (that generate the beeeeep) and connect directly the two wires to the piezo drive.
The advantage of this solution is that a type (1) disk, has a resonating houses exactly at the drive frequency, and so probably it generates a more powerful clicks.
Reply about the buzzer of Checker – ITALIANO
There are two types of buzzer:
1) Buzzers that generate a “beeeeeep” when fed with the right polarisation.
2) Simple piezo discs, non-polarized.
Now you're probably using the type (1). But probably you would get a “Click” more powerful (and hassle of polarization +/-), with the type (2)
Or even better:
Use a buzzer of type (1) but remove all circuit components (that generate the beeeeep) and directly connect the two wires to the piezo disc.
The advantage of this solution is that a buzzer of type (1) has a sounding board, tuned exactly to the frequency of the diskette and then probably generates a “Click” more powerful.